“My pal Pete Seeger said that he gave life on Earth a 50/50 chance and he was certain that if human life on Earth was going to survive, it was because people talk to each other found some sense of community, and found some little piece of ground that they loved and they work towards the preservation of that place.”

Cody Sanford  (CS): Hi, everyone, this is Cody Sanford, and you are reading the transcript from a Livable Future podcast. So in the last few days, I finished college, I now have a degree in ecosystem sciences and sustainability from Colorado State University. I feel proud, I’m relieved, and I’m ready to move to the next phase of my life. As I looked at what propelled me to where I’m at now, I can say one of the guiding things was my connection to the Rocky Mountains. I’m still in awe by how beautiful, complex, and timeless these mountains are. Living in Colorado, I see firsthand how the whole state is linked to this ecosystem. One example of many is our freshwater supply is from Mountain runoff. And this means if there’s low snowpack, the whole state will have less fresh water for communities, businesses and agriculture. Plus the Colorado River is the main water supply for the whole southwestern United States. When the Colorado Rockies don’t have snow, millions of people’s lives are affected. That’s not even to mention the impacts on the ecosystem. My connection to the Rocky Mountains helped me see how dependent we are on the ecosystems we live in. That’s what this episode is about; connecting people to place is a powerful teaching tool. This is something lecturer at Indiana University in longtime Park Service employee, Dr. Brian Forist embraces. Dr. Forrest and I explore what it looks like to connect people to nature. One thing that’s unearthed in this conversation is how common of an occurrence it is for people to find a deep bond to a specific place in nature. Here’s what Dr. Forrest has to say from his experience as an educator.

Brian Forist (BF): You know, I taught a course last August, we have something in Indiana called the intensive freshmen seminars. And there’s about 25 or so classes, they’re taught for two and a half week period each August, before the fall semester begins. And it’s the first college experience for students. And of course, last year 2020 was weird. But the thing that really excited me about that class that I hadn’t anticipated, we spent a great deal of our time working in this 10 acre woodland on campus, part of the original campus purchased in 1883, called DUNS woods. And my students did a biological inventory there, they did some social media writing regarding DUNS woods, and they wrote stories about their own connection with the place, the thing that really struck me was that they really got that place. Like they, they walked away, knowing this 10 acres and knowing that it was a place that could make help them stay sane, in a really weird time, in a transitional point in their lives. And so, thing that gave me great hope was that spend a few days in the woods, and they get it, they really get it just how connected That place is to their mental health, their community health, their physical health.

CS : I’m honestly fascinated by this concept. And I’ve seen how effective this is in the education system. But how can it apply more broadly? First, we have to address the challenges that scientists faced and Dr. Forest does a great job.

BF: We have challenges because we’re a divided nation. And there are a lot of folks that don’t think the stories of people on the margins do anything. And maybe they don’t do anything for them. And I would say that’s because they have not examined their privilege, but that’s not really good. You know, coffee shop conversation, the better coffee shop conversation is just talking and getting to know each other. Let’s challenge are certainly we’re a divided nation. We don’t agree about science, about the role that what we call resources should play in our, our nation’s existence. We don’t agree about sustainability, which my understanding as a scientist is that that’s kind of the goal and it’s gonna happen, whether we’re part of it or not, you know, my my pal Pete Seeger said that he gave life on Earth a 5050 chance. And he was certain that if it was going to survive if human life on Earth was going to survive, it was because people talk to each other found some sense of community and found some little piece of ground that they loved, and they work towards the preservation of that place. These are, I’m speaking very broadly here about challenges. We’ve also got challenges like climate is changing, and how do we effectively communicate about that with a skeptical population or a partly skeptical population? Or how do we defuse the dialogue and make it about something that we may have in common than somebody has a common ground? You know, I, I’ve done a little tiny research project, observing a few interpretive programs in two different national parks dealing with issues of climate change, and then interviewing participants in those programs. three or so months after the experience to try to get a sense of, of what they took away what the outcomes were. And my inkling from a very small set of data is that when people are in places where the projected effects of climate change are easily understandable, and when they affect something that they seem to hold, in some esteem, they understand it. And that understanding, I suspect, may lead to some action. That was again, vague, but I can give you an example at Shenandoah National Park I, one of the things I observed was a talk about the Shenandoah salamander, in endemic species, found only on a couple of mountain tops in the park. And as the temperature warms, you know, where does something that needs a cool environment girl. But if they’re already at the highest mountain tops, clearly there’s nowhere to go. And so I went I observed a talk all about the salamander. And then I observed a hike that went to one of those mountain tops. And among maybe 20 topics on the hike, there was a few minutes devoted to the salamander, people looked for them, didn’t find them. But literally, you know, three or four minutes, as opposed to a 25 minute talk about the salamander. And it was the people on the hike. Afterwards, to a person that could name the salamander could tell me exactly why it was threatened. And that climate change was potentially driving it further and there was nowhere to go. Whereas those that had been at the talk, knew it was about a salamander. And it might have had to deal with climate change. But they couldn’t tell me any more detail. What I take from that is that talking about a concern that is so abstract, as climate change, in general, is hard to understand. But if you move that talk to the exact place where we can predict an effect, and think about an exact species that may be affected, it seems that people take away a deeper understanding. And I would say then, it supports the notion of teaching in place that we teach about Shenandoah at Shenandoah, not at Rocky Mountain, that we teach about the Shenandoah salamander, in their habitat, not 50 miles down the road where they wouldn’t be found. And that the act of looking for them, even if it’s only a couple of minutes, might have some effect on the human. So huge challenges finding common ground and empathy. You know, I my sense was that people really cared about that salamander. I think they also had a visceral experience because everybody in the beginning of their interview, when I asked about the hike, as well, we made it to the top and there was something about that elevation gain of 200 feet that way really memorable, and somehow them going from low to high. Knowing the salamander has no higher to go, I see that as maybe one of the sources of that empathy. My expertise, if I had any, is in this thing called interpretation or public communication in parks and protected areas. And I’ve done some writing on what my mentor here at IU and I call a new pedagogy for interpretation, which is based in dialogue. And I think this has a lot to do with getting people involved in their Park. If we see the visitors, as co curators, as active participants and experience, as opposed to empty vessels that we need to fill with wisdom. We are inherently getting them involved by listening by responding to their interest to their knowledge, and so coming off less as a presenter, and more as the puppet master or the choreographer experience. So our whole approach to interpretation is what we call two way or interpretation through dialogue that really tries to engage the visitor. And it’s a collective agenda that we address, rather than my agenda of what they need to know. And so I think getting people involved can be part of and encourage a shift of authority, where it’s a shared authority. And that’s, to me, that’s that same perspective that sets some of yours things to the side, and says, Well, he did this, but he also did this. And that’s problematic. Let’s open the doors to a broader audience. Let’s challenge things let’s engage in conversation. And that attitude that I attribute to mewar, that says, me as a park ranger, I know better. You’re not having a good experience, because you’re not having my experience in the park is the same attitude that says, I need to present to you. And the attitude that says, you know, what you’ve got something to contribute, is the attitude that says, let’s learn how to steward this place together. So it’s much more collaborative.

CS: In society right now, we have many tension points, which are hard to discuss. Dr. Forrest shares an example of how a connection to plays can be a community meeting ground for healing and understanding.

BF: You know, just to talk about, you know, the what’s going on in America, I think about my friend Robin white. She’s now the superintendent at Little Rock Central High School site of an important struggle for desegregation in American education. A few years ago, in Little Rock, there was a cyber bullying incident. And that kid who identified as LGBTQ, was bullied and ended up taking their life. And Robin felt that it was her obligation as the you know, the person with the keys that her National Park site, which talked about inclusion in education, should be the place for a community forum in response to that tragic incident where people could find common ground and find a path forward for other LGBTQ kids and that sort of parks at their best. Similarly after the police murder of Michael Brown in Missouri, National Park Service at Gateway Arch held community listening and Healing Sessions. After the the murders at the African American church in Charleston, the National Park Service ended up facilitating a community dialogue. And so parks can become places where we hash out our differences where we come to understand each other better. And as the employee base begins to look more like America, I think there’s also great hope. So I guess it’s the same. There’s this vein that runs through my approach to learning and teaching, my approach to interpretation, my approach to park stewardship, collaborative management, as well as, you know, all of my left leaning ideas and in America. I believe in the value of each person needs perspective, there’s sometimes when the perspective does not have place, you know, overt racism. I’m not big on the Confederate flag. There, there are things that cannot exist. That’s not a perspective. That’s that’s belligerents and agitation. But, but the same attitudes are the ones that I think are going to move our parks forward. And I would like to think are going to move education and move the nation forward as as we deal with problems rather than sensationalized them or shove them aside.

CS: After all of this conversation, you might be wondering how you can start to get involved with the park system. And here’s what Dr. Forrest has to say.

BF: Yeah, well, there’s certainly lots of ways. There’s lots of volunteer opportunities. Now go to volunteer.gov and see what you can scare up. You know, when I’ve worked as a Ranger, and to many people, I look like someone who they would imagine being retired from some other career or something I will probably never experience but so they would see me and say, Oh, you must be retired. You know, I’ve always wanted to do this. And my responses, it’s never too late. You know, I’ve got a friend Betty Reid soskin, who will turn 100 before long and she is currently a permanent park ranger at Rosie the Riveter national, Rosie the Riveter, World War Two Homefront National Historical Park in California. So volunteer, volunteer with other organizations that do do nature do stewardship to service. That’s a really critical one.

CS: As we end, Dr. Forrest gives his reasons why he remains hopeful for a bright future in America’s park system.

BF: The fact that we are making progress that and we now have 423 units in our national park system. The most recent is the Medgar and myrlie Evers National Historic Site, the home of civil rights icons. We also have added amazing sights to our park system that gives me great hope. Cesar Chavez National Monument, the first site to really commemorate contributions of a Latin American person. Of course, places like Brown versus Board of Education, National Historic Site and Little Rock Central High School sites of desegregation and education. Brown was one of my dissertation research sites. And then of course, Stonewall National Monument at the site of this, President Obama said a riot that turned into a movement and National Park site that currently is the one that commemorates the struggle for LGBTQ rights. So we’re, we’re expanding our system, we’re expanding our sense of what heritage is. And when I hang out with young people, it’s like, well, of course, we’re doing that as opposed to the children. It’s just Of course, we should do that. And that’s what gives me hope.

CS: One point I want to emphasize is that we won’t agree on everything. But I think if we find a mutual love for a place like the Rocky Mountains, it can help focus us on what is uniting us, rather than what’s dividing us. Dr. Forrest details many examples of how this connection to nature is powerful for healing, learning and uniting people. We really appreciate all the wise advice he delivered as a guest on our show, and we hope he comes back in the future. Please remember to follow the Livable Future podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and on social media. I hope you have a great rest of your day and thank you for listening!Brian Forist  (BF): My pal Pete Seeger said that he gave life on Earth a 50/50 chance and he was certain that if human life on Earth was going to survive, it was because people talk to each other found some sense of community, and found some little piece of ground that they loved and they work towards the preservation of that place.

Cody Sanford  (CS): Hi, everyone, this is Cody Sanford, and you are reading the transcript from a Livable Future podcast. So in the last few days, I finished college, I now have a degree in ecosystem sciences and sustainability from Colorado State University. I feel proud, I’m relieved, and I’m ready to move to the next phase of my life. As I looked at what propelled me to where I’m at now, I can say one of the guiding things was my connection to the Rocky Mountains. I’m still in awe by how beautiful, complex, and timeless these mountains are. Living in Colorado, I see firsthand how the whole state is linked to this ecosystem. One example of many is our freshwater supply is from Mountain runoff. And this means if there’s a low snowpack, the whole state will have less freshwater for communities, businesses, and agriculture. Plus the Colorado River is the main water supply for the whole southwestern United States. When the Colorado Rockies don’t have snow, millions of people’s lives are affected. That’s not even to mention the impacts on the ecosystem. My connection to the Rocky Mountains helped me see how dependent we are on the ecosystems we live in. That’s what this episode is about; connecting people to place is a powerful teaching tool. This is something lecturer at Indiana University in longtime Park Service employee, Dr. Brian Forist embraces. Dr. Forrest and I explore what it looks like to connect people to nature. One thing that’s unearthed in this conversation is how common of an occurrence it is for people to find a deep bond to a specific place in nature. Here’s what Dr. Forrest has to say from his experience as an educator.

BF: You know, I taught a course last August, we have something in Indiana called the intensive freshmen seminars. And there are about 25 or so classes, they’re taught for two and a half week period each August before the fall semester begins. And it’s the first college experience for students. And of course, the last year 2020 was weird. But the thing that excited me about that class that I hadn’t anticipated, we spent a great deal of our time working in this 10 acre woodland on campus, part of the original campus purchased in 1883, called DUNS woods. And my students did a biological inventory there, they did some social media writing regarding DUNS woods, and they wrote stories about their own connection with the place, the thing that struck me was that they got that place. Like they, they walked away, knowing these 10 acres and knowing that it was a place that could make help them stay sane, in a really weird time, in a transitional point in their lives. And so, the thing that gave me great hope was that spend a few days in the woods, and they get it, they really get it just how connected That place is to their mental health, their community health, their physical health.

CS : I’m honestly fascinated by this concept. And I’ve seen how effective this is in the education system. But how can it apply more broadly? First, we have to address the challenges that scientists faced and Dr. Forest does a great job.

BF: We have challenges because we’re a divided nation. And there are a lot of folks that don’t think the stories of people on the margins do anything. And maybe they don’t do anything for them. And I would say that’s because they have not examined their privilege, but that’s not good. You know, coffee shop conversation, the better coffee shop conversation is just talking and getting to know each other. Let’s challenge are certainly we’re a divided nation. We don’t agree about science, about the role that what we call resources should play in our, our nation’s existence. We don’t agree about sustainability, which my understanding as a scientist is that that’s kind of the goal and it’s gonna happen, whether we’re part of it or not, you know, my my pal Pete Seeger said that he gave life on Earth a 5050 chance. And he was certain that if it was going to survive if human life on Earth was going to survive, it was because people talk to each other found some sense of community and found some little piece of ground that they loved, and they work towards the preservation of that place. These are, I’m speaking very broadly here about challenges. We’ve also got challenges like climate is changing, and how do we effectively communicate about that with a skeptical population or a partly skeptical population? Or how do we defuse the dialogue and make it about something that we may have in common than somebody has a common ground? You know, I, I’ve done a little tiny research project, observing a few interpretive programs in two different national parks dealing with issues of climate change, and then interviewing participants in those programs. three or so months after the experience to try to get a sense of, of what they took away what the outcomes were. And my inkling from a very small set of data is that when people are in places where the projected effects of climate change are easily understandable, and when they affect something that they seem to hold, in some esteem, they understand it. And that understanding, I suspect, may lead to some action. That was again, vague, but I can give you an example at Shenandoah National Park I, one of the things I observed was a talk about the Shenandoah salamander, in endemic species, found only on a couple of mountain tops in the park. And as the temperature warms, you know, where does something that needs a cool environment girl. But if they’re already at the highest mountain tops, clearly there’s nowhere to go. And so I went I observed a talk all about the salamander. And then I observed a hike that went to one of those mountain tops. And among maybe 20 topics on the hike, there were a few minutes devoted to the salamander, people looked for them, didn’t find them. But literally, you know, three or four minutes, as opposed to a 25-minute talk about the salamander. And it was the people on the hike. Afterward, a person that could name the salamander could tell me exactly why it was threatened. And that climate change was potentially driving it further and there was nowhere to go. Whereas those that had been at the talk knew it was about a salamander. And it might have had to deal with climate change. But they couldn’t tell me any more detail. What I take from that is that talking about a concern that is so abstract, as climate change, in general, is hard to understand. But if you move that talk to the exact place where we can predict an effect, and think about an exact species that may be affected, it seems that people take away a deeper understanding. And I would say then, it supports the notion of teaching in a place that we teach about Shenandoah at Shenandoah, not at Rocky Mountain, that we teach about the Shenandoah salamander, in their habitat, not 50 miles down the road where they wouldn’t be found. And that the act of looking for them, even if it’s only a couple of minutes, might have some effect on the human. So huge challenges finding common ground and empathy. You know, I sensed that people cared about that salamander. I think they also had a visceral experience because everybody at the beginning of their interview, when I asked about the hike, as well, we made it to the top and there was something about that elevation gain of 200 feet that was memorable, and somehow them going from low to high. Knowing the salamander has no higher to go, I see that as maybe one of the sources of that empathy. My expertise, if I had any, is in this thing called interpretation or public communication in parks and protected areas. And I’ve done some writing on what my mentor here at IU and I call a new pedagogy for interpretation, which is based in dialogue. And I think this has a lot to do with getting people involved in their Park. If we see the visitors, as co-curators, as active participants and experience, as opposed to empty vessels that we need to fill with wisdom. We are inherently getting them involved by listening by responding to their interest to their knowledge, and so coming off less as a presenter, and more as the puppet master or the choreographer experience. So our whole approach to interpretation is what we call two-way or interpretation through dialogue that really tries to engage the visitor. And it’s a collective agenda that we address, rather than my agenda of what they need to know. And so I think getting people involved can be part of and encourage a shift of authority, where it’s a shared authority. And that’s, to me, that’s that same perspective that sets some of your things to the side and says, Well, he did this, but he also did this. And that’s problematic. Let’s open the doors to a broader audience. Let’s challenge things to let’s engage in conversation. And that attitude that I attribute to Mewar, that says, me as a park ranger, I know better. You’re not having a good experience, because you’re not having my experience in the park is the same attitude that says, I need to present to you. And the attitude that says, you know, what you’ve got something to contribute, is the attitude that says, let’s learn how to steward this place together. So it’s much more collaborative.

CS: In society right now, we have many tension points, which are hard to discuss. Dr. Forrest shares an example of how a connection to plays can be a community meeting ground for healing and understanding.

BF: You know, just to talk about, you know, what’s going on in America, I think about my friend Robin white. She’s now the superintendent at Little Rock Central High School site of an important struggle for desegregation in American education. A few years ago, in Little Rock, there was a cyberbullying incident. And that kid who identified as LGBTQ was bullied and ended up taking their life. And Robin felt that it was her obligation as you know, the person with the keys that her National Park site, which talked about inclusion in education, should be the place for a community forum in response to that tragic incident where people could find common ground and find a path forward for other LGBTQ kids and that sort of parks at their best. Similarly, after the police murder of Michael Brown in Missouri, National Park Service at Gateway Arch held community listening and Healing Sessions. After the murders at the African American church in Charleston, the National Park Service ended up facilitating community dialogue. And so parks can become places where we hash out our differences where we come to understand each other better. And as the employee base begins to look more like America, I think there’s also great hope. So I guess it’s the same. There’s this vein that runs through my approach to learning and teaching, my approach to interpretation, my approach to park stewardship, collaborative management, as well as, you know, all of my left-leaning ideas and in America. I believe in the value of each person needs perspective, there’s sometimes when the perspective does not have a place, you know, overt racism. I’m not big on the Confederate flag. There, there are things that cannot exist. That’s not a perspective. That’s belligerents and agitation. But, but the same attitudes are the ones that I think are going to move our parks forward. And I would like to think are going to move education and move the nation forward as we deal with problems rather than sensationalized them or shove them aside.

CS: After all of this conversation, you might be wondering how you can start to get involved with the park system. And here’s what Dr. Forrest has to say.

BF: Yeah, well, there are certainly lots of ways. There are lots of volunteer opportunities. Now go to volunteer.gov and see what you can scare up. You know, when I’ve worked as a Ranger, and to many people, I look like someone who they would imagine being retired from some other career or something I will probably never experience but so they would see me and say, Oh, you must be retired. You know, I’ve always wanted to do this. And my responses, it’s never too late. You know, I’ve got a friend Betty Reid soskin*, who will turn 100 before long and she is currently a permanent park ranger at Rosie the Riveter national, Rosie the Riveter, World War Two Homefront National Historical Park in California. So volunteer, volunteer with other organizations that do nature do stewardship to service. That’s a really critical one.

CS: As we end, Dr. Forrest gives his reasons why he remains hopeful for a bright future in America’s park system.

BF: The fact that we are making progress that and we now have 423 units in our national park system. The most recent is the Medgar and Myrlie Evers National Historic Site, the home of civil rights icons. We also have added amazing sights to our park system that gives me great hope. Cesar Chavez National Monument, the first site to really commemorate the contributions of a Latin American person. Of course, places like Brown versus Board of Education, National Historic Site, and Little Rock Central High School sites of desegregation and education. Brown was one of my dissertation research sites. And then, of course, Stonewall National Monument at the site of this, President Obama said a riot that turned into a movement and National Park site that currently is the one that commemorates the struggle for LGBTQ rights. So we’re, we’re expanding our system, we’re expanding our sense of what heritage is. And when I hang out with young people, it’s like, well, of course, we’re doing that as opposed to the children. It’s just Of course, we should do that. And that’s what gives me hope.

CS: One point I want to emphasize is that we won’t agree on everything. But I think if we find a mutual love for a place like the Rocky Mountains, it can help focus us on what is uniting us, rather than what’s dividing us. Dr. Forrest details many examples of how this connection to nature is powerful for healing, learning, and uniting people. We appreciate all the wise advice he delivered as a guest on our show, and we hope he comes back in the future. Please remember to follow the Livable Future podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and on social media. I hope you have a great rest of your day and thank you for listening!