Cody Sanford: Welcome to the Livable Future Podcast. I am Cody Sanford. This is a podcast where we dive into conversations with leading experts in environmental science, sustainability, and policy. Each episode aims to connect community and global perspectives on today’s pressing climate and environmental challenges while highlighting practical solutions you can incorporate into the real world. Marking our third installment on the topic of mountain ecology, we spotlight Hawaiian Islands’ historical land management practices. We delve into how these ecological practices intertwine with Hawaiian culture and explore climate change’s impact on the island chain. Dr. Katie Kamelamela is an Assistant Professor at Arizona State University and researcher in the Global Discovery and Conservation Science Center who studies ethnoecology, ecological restoration, indigenous conceptions of wealth, and indigenous economies. I met Dr. Kamelamela as a part of the Mountain Sentinels Alliance, which is a coalition of international networks dedicated to mountain research and action. Dr. Kamelamela explores both historical and modern Native Hawaiian plant gathering in forests, advocating for policies that embrace community voices in forest restoration. She is an engaging speaker and is fairly active on social media, I’ll have her website, Instagram and X, formerly Twitter, accounts linked in the show notes.  We are fortunate to have Dr. Kamelamela on the podcast and I hope this discussion inspires and informs you. I found the conversation about the Try-wait campaign to be a refreshing take on ecological restoration and this is a focus for the discussion at the end of the episode. 

Remember to subscribe to stay up to date with our conversations about the environment, sustainability, and finding solutions to the climate crisis. You can connect with us on social media. Full episode transcripts are on the website. All this will be linked in the episode notes. 

Now let’s move forward with our conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Kamelamela.

Dr. Katie Kamelamela:  Yeah, thanks for having me, Cody.

Cody Sanford: Of course and thanks for coming on the podcast.  Dr. Kamelamela you describe yourself as an ethnoecologist. How would you explain the type of research you conduct?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so I’ll start first. Most people haven’t heard of ethnoecology, so I’ll start there. Ethnoecology is the study of people and the relationships they have with the environment. I originally started as an ethnobotanist, having all my degrees from the botany department at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. So I had an ethnobotany program that studied and focused on the relationships people have with plants. But the more recent work I do… goes beyond plants and includes things like waterways, animals, rocks, minerals, sand, and how the environment shapes us, as well as how we shape environments. So that’s what I study, that’s what I’m interested in. Most people think that when I say that I’m an ethnoecologist that I’m just looking at ecology and how the ecosystems interact with each other, but it’s really how people engage with the environment, how they view the environment, and how they see themselves within that environment, either part of or separate, and that creates landscapes that we see today.

Cody Sanford: Yeah, I think the connection between ecology and people’s everyday world needs to be better explained and better understood. So thank you for doing this type of research. One of the focuses I see of your research is on indigenous and local knowledge resources. Would you be able to discuss more? And how Hawaiians use the resources on the land.

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so how Hawaiian resources use the land today is really informed by how we use the land historically. So what I really like about my work is looking at historical ecology or how people have historically used lands, how lands have been shaped by previous relationships and what resources or relationships we continue to engage in. So in Hawaii, Polynesians arrived.

Oh, back it up. Hawaii is one of the most isolated places on the planet, being almost just in the middle of the Pacific for listeners who aren’t familiar. The islands are created by volcanic shield on a tectonic plate. So the movement of the islands is, you see the volcano on Hawaii islands, known as Kilauea. That spot technically hasn’t moved but the land above it has moved, that plate has moved. And so what we’re seeing is old volcanic islands, which are now atolls in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands down to new lands being formed on Hawaii Island. Going a little bit further, because of the isolation of Hawaii and the different elevations of our islands, as well as atolls.

This creates different minerals. Well, the minerals are mainly determined by the volcanic matter that dries and deteriorates any roads over time. So if you visit Kauai, Kauai is one of the older islands and it has very dramatic mountain-scapes, very dramatic, like precipice drops. Whereas on Hawaii Island, When you think of a shield for battle and war that they would use before, if you flip it on the side and then there’s a peak in the middle and on the sides it’s more gentle, that’s exactly what the mountains on Ho’i Island looks like. And so people are actually able to study the history of that. And I’m also just going to insert here because of the age of the islands and…it’s a high island, which means that the mountains intercept the clouds. And so we’re able to have fresh water, which you would think that because we’re surrounded by water, we would have a lot of access to it, but that’s not really the case. The only water that we get is the water that intercepts with our mountains. And it usually on Oahu, which is a middle-aged island, takes about 25 years for water to percolate down into the aquifer.

Because of this, we have different microclimates. We have the most microclimates in the world, meaning that, what’s the number? I think out of like 15 microclimates identified by geologists and climatologists, we have 13 of 15. The only two we do not have is permafrost year-round. We do have permafrost in the Mauna Kea region, but it is not year-round. And so I set that all up because when Polynesians arrived, different waves of Tahitians and Marquesans who ended up settling and bringing a cadre of plants known as Naukunu plants or Polynesian introductions, those are the plants and technologies that were brought for food, clothing, ritual, ornamentation, music even, transported landscapes in general. So historical ecology, that’s kind of the setup. Most of the resources, the plant resources, came on wind, waves, and wings. So small seeds can come through the wind things like bidens, like your sneakers that have the Velcro, that Velcro was inspired by seeds. So those types of seeds get stuck on birds and they come over. And so because of the microclimates and the isolation, we have the highest number of endemic species, meaning that plants and animals only found in one area. With the contemporary pressures of urbanization and human sprawl basically, we also have the highest endangered species, I want to say for sure, in the nation and possibly in the world. So it’s important to study those things, especially when outside of just Hawaii. What is it, like three to six percent of the world’s population, but steward 85% of biodiversity in the world? And so looking at these practices historically and up to today informs us on how we can reinvigorate these relationships and extend where we’re able to cultivate a robust relationships with plants, animals, and resources that we depend on in everyday life. That was long, but yeah.

Cody Sanford: Dr. No, it was beautiful. I especially like the point about how important Indigenous people are to being stewards of biodiversity, and that point, I think nobody can emphasize it enough just because it’s such an important relevant point to ecology. I want to ask about

Or I guess I’m curious overall, how deep of an impact does the Native Hawaiian access rights have in the community?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so Native Hawaiian rights is… Like, we have to go back. So to understand what’s going on today, we have to understand where those laws kind of stemmed from or where those laws stemmed from. So when Polynesians came, they weren’t yet Hawaiians. And when they adapted to the landscape, curating systems for abundance such as fish ponds. So for listeners who aren’t available, I’m gonna go from like the ocean to the mountain because that’s where people mainly made settlements was where there was fresh water on the ocean. So fish ponds are areas that are rocked in, just not on the land, but literally in the ocean.

and there are sleuth gates that are opened and closed. They have different widths within them. So when you open them, when the tide is coming in, little fish come in. And when the tide goes out, you close the gate so the little fish can go in and out, but the fat fish stay inside. And so what happens is fish ponds were made where fresh water comes in. So you have seaweed beds and herbivorous fish eat those seaweed beds and then you’re able to marine culture and it’s like the early stages of aquaculture that happen. And so you’re able to create a system in which you, although there is a lot of input in creating the walls, some of the walls can go at least, I’ve seen walls which are being currently restored be like 20 feet in the ocean. So collecting rock that’s 20 feet and then with the surges of climate change being able to continue to increase that height if necessary as well as rebuild if there’s big surges that come along maybe during a king tide. So that’s one system that Hawaiians created and a method that I’m learning has also been used in other places to maximize the amount of hours you have in the day. So instead of having to go and fish individually, you could create the fish pond and communities could eat from there. Moving up into the ocean, onto land, there are systems that are freshwater fish ponds that also use similar mechanics. And so not just allowing for freshwater fish, saltwater fish and sometimes those freshwater fish live in taro systems, in lo’i system, so wetland, field pond systems for taro, colocasia, esqualenta, which is used a lot more in Hawaii than in other places in Polynesia, Micronesia, and Melanesia. Different parts were identified within Oceania, within the Pacific. And when you have functional pond field systems for taro and for fish, sometimes the fish lived in those freshwater areas, you have carbohydrates from the taro, not just the corn, but also the leaf, the whole plant is edible. And then you have protein from the fish. And so I bring all of that up because that creates an idea of what we have in Hawaii known as the Ahupua’a system. So in Hawaii, you have peaks and valleys, different but maybe similar to the continental United States. In Hawaii, it’s very clear if you come here and you drive around, especially on Oahu, where you have these edges and peaks and at the middle of those is usually where streams are. And so that’s the traditional, that’s a traditional land management unit. There are many units in that. So you could have, for people that can’t see me on a screen, you have the whole island, which is known as a Moku. Within that island, you have smaller pieces that are also known as Moku. So that’s a different layer of management.

Then you have smaller parcels within that known as Ahupua’a. Within Ahupua’a, you have smaller sets known as ʻili. So you have a tiered land management, traditional land management system that was decentralized, meaning that unlike today where Honolulu is the capital on Oahu, and all policy and budget decisions are made there.

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Those decisions were made on each island. And so the needs of the people and the needs of the land were very clear because of, for lack of a better word right now, the hierarchy or the observations done by land managers. In 1850, the Ahupua’a system was impacted. Prior to 1850, this is all coming back to contemporary relationships with the law. This is how deep the law is. The law is before, what happened before what we know as our centralized government. So in 1850, there was a constitutional monarchy at that time. Let me think, let me think. No, it was still a traditional monarchy at that time, which meant that Khamenei had a third, I believe. There are five. You know, there’s a lot of history. So yeah, Kaui Kioli in 1850, I believe, due to the pressures from second generation missionary and businessman interested in expanding sugarcane wanted reassurance in their investments. And prior to 1850, similar to other Native American stories on the continental United States and Turtle Island, land was not privately owned as we understand today. These are my boundaries. No one is able to cross them. There’s no trespassing. Stories we have share with us in Hawaii that prior to 1850, people would move freely. If they didn’t like a ruler, they would overthrow them. If they didn’t like a ruler, they would move. And unlike contemporary lifestyles, which is sedentary or people don’t move often, we usually just stay in our home. People used to move with the seasons. So in the summer you would be by the ocean, utilizing those resources. And in the winter you would go towards the mountains and kind of have two homes because winter and summer, you don’t really think about Hawaii having a lot of seasonal changes. What is it? Temperature changes more drastically in Hawaii in one day than it does throughout the whole year, if I’m remembering that correctly. So that gives you an idea of how our seasons are. It’s not super dramatic, but I can tell when it’s winter. Like winter just started, like literally two days ago where I live, I could feel the wind coming in and it was cold. It was flannel time. So you have these land management approaches. 1850 comes, the privatization of land comes, dispossessing that whole Ahupua’a structure of land management and kinship with the land. People are exposed from lands that they have historically taken care of. But in that document of the mahele, Kawe Keoli has these few lines that native tenants are allowed to gather wood and resources for subsistence lifestyle. Fast forward to 1978, we’ve gone through the overthrow in 1893, the provisional government which then turned into, what is that, afterward the territory and then the state.

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: I feel like I’m missing one step there as far as governance. But the point is that after the overthrow, there’s a big shift towards American structures of governance. And in 1978, the Constitutional Convention for the state of Hawaii happened with Native Hawaiians advocating for Native Hawaiian rights. Within this Constitutional Convention, for those who aren’t aware, the Constitutional Convention happens in all states. And that’s when I believe in Hawaii, at least it’s every 10 years, the residents or the citizenry is able to amend the goals, ideals, and visions of their state. And so at that time, Native Hawaiian tenant rights were included. So now it’s recognized in case law in the constitution as well as administrative rules. People start doing case law and challenging. And so now we also have things called, oh, I would just Kapa’akai, which provides steps for people who are interested in doing construction and development in Hawaii steps to identify if there are resources that are integral to Hawaiian subsistence lifestyles that could be fishing, access to water, even pasture land for animals. I believe animals came in like 1815, 1813. And so the relationship that people have with the land today is because of the advocacy of those that came before us, not just in 1978, but in 1850, and more importantly, the people who held those traditions through all of the governmental changes. And that is really what sustains us today. If Native Hawaiians, which will not happen in my watch, stop those relationships then that puts our rights into jeopardy. So it’s important that those relationships and exchanges, so exchange could be, it’s not just about gathering, it’s also about cultivating and curating. So invasive species is a huge topic everywhere, especially with climate change and drought and fires.

Hawaii just had a huge fire with Lahaina, which was fueled by invasive grasses, which were housed on private lands, which were historically sugarcane plantation and pasture land that have been abandoned. And so you see right there with the importance of land management and relationships, and some of these parcels have not had native relations with tenants, Native Hawaiian tenants for a decade or two at this point. What is it? 2023, maybe like 18. Yeah, some of them for a really long time, over a century. And so when you have that gap and you have a call from Western conservationists to engage in Native, not just Hawaiian, indigenous ecosystems and relationships, it’s really…

What’s the good word for this?

a little bit insane that you have people requesting that native peoples provide them the guidance and direction on how to manage lands that they have been ripped from and fragmented those relationships. Some families were able to, in Hawaii, were able to petition for what is known as kuleana lands. Kuleana means rights and responsibility.

So they were able to hold on to those traditional lands, very far and few between. It’s more often that people were not able to do that with the timeframe. Not many people were reading and writing at that time. A lot of this happened by mouth in 1850. I think people only had two years to provide their testimonies, people that lived on the land, as well as testimonies of people living next to them. From all the islands, they had to go to Oahu. This was pre-planes. This was a time when people had to jump ships or paddle over hundreds of miles. So the request in some of the craziest channels in the world, ocean channels, the Kaievalu, the eight channels, so there are eight channels between the islands. So the relationship between the laws that we currently have, and I’m not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of it, is critical. And so if people want to learn more about those, there’s a book called The Native Hawaiian Treaties that was written by a Native Hawaiian and ally lawyers at the Richardson School of Law at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. So the relationship that Native Hawaiians have sculpted and continues to sculpt the policies that we have today and inform them. So a contemporary example of this is what we call in Hawaii, community-based subsistent fishing areas. I haven’t worked in that area specifically, but I did work with inaugural community-based subsistence forest area. And the goal of those is to identify areas that will be stewarded. And I’m just gonna talk about the Makai or the ocean that are stewarded in traditional ways. What does that mean? What does that look like? That means and could possibly look like harvesting certain species according to certain moons in certain seasons. Having different catch sizes, different from the manual that’s written by the state. Specific guidelines as to resting different fishing areas which means no take at all. And there’s an experiment going on. I can’t remember, I know it’s in Kona. We’re going through a lot of information right now. So yeah, thanks for bearing with me. But their campaign is called Tri-Wait, which is a local term. Sure, not many people know about it. Tri-Wait is a… colloquialism we use in Hawaii and like just be patient and you know Just a little bit time and then we’ll do it So their experiment which is led by the community is to not fish for 10 years in a marine protected area How is that different from another marine protected area is that it will open? I think we already went through the halfway point. I think we only have like maybe two or three more years and they’re seeing reinvigoration of fish populations in those areas. So that’s the importance of Native Hawaiian relationships to policy if I was able to do that in some sort of a nutshell.

Cody Sanford: Oh my God. Uh, thank you. That was, uh, like the fact about the natural rights dating back before the 1850, that is going to stick with me. I just think that’s so cool how you can date back to natural rights this long. In our era, we are just now starting to understand the importance of this concept and the fact that Native Hawaiians have had this dating back almost 200 years. And then you know, it had to be talked about much more before that before it was ever like a part of the law, like that had to be really like a part of the culture in depth.

And what you just said about the you said try wait is how do you spell that?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Oh yeah, just try wait, T-R-Y space W-A-I-T. 

Cody Sanford: Oh, cool. I love that philosophy. And it’s seeing how you’re able to turn around an ecosystem by giving it the space it needs to heal. I think it’s, I’ve heard it happening in other places as well besides Hawaii. I think it’s really crucial in this time of climate change and impact that we’re trying to understand where we’re going. I think this sort of tool that you just mentioned will be needed for ecologists. You were talking about it a little bit, but I wanna shift gears to talk about mountains. This is a part of our sustainable mountain series, and we met through the Mountain Sentinels Alliance. I guess, Dr. Kamelamela, what is the connection between your research and the mountains? And the Hawaiian people in the mountains.

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so the largest body of work that we just published through, that is just freshly published through the U.S. Forest Service is what’s called Cultural and Economic Foundations of Ho’i Non-Timber Forest Products. Non-Timber Forest Products is a newish term. People know about forest products, which in the academic and management sense, forest specific to any trees that are harvested for lumber, for housing, for furniture, and to make paper. Non-timber forest products use, refer to anything gathered from the forest that comes from seed, bark, resin, fruits, leaves, inner bark, anything that is not used for furniture, paper, or building houses, and identifying what those contributions are. Why that was done in Hawaii is we don’t really, we have a nascent or a beginning of a windmilling industry due to like growth rates and processing and things like that. So the state and the federal government wanted to understand better the relationship with people and the environment.

I think we identified at least 140 different species that are still used today. The data is from, the data set is from about 2015 to 2017. So it’s about six years old, but the data still stands that we didn’t know that 140 plants were used for things such as like firewood, hula, traditional dances, lei. The adornments for hula, crafts, woodworking, things of that medicine. And it’s not just Native Hawaiians. Other peoples, our ethnicities, our cultures also documented, not as heavily, but also include Japanese communities collecting bamboo for Japanese New Year’s, and as well as for food. Take noko is the food. Karamatsu is the celebratory item. I get karamatsu during New Year’s, which aligns with Guguri in New Year’s, January 1st. And so the importance of that is, when we talk about mountain relationships, we’re talking about curating landscapes. People talk about restoration, but people…like I said, have continued practices even without direct access or what’s the best way to say that? Without papers of owning that land.  Some of the land is 25% of the land the state owns is in forest. Most or many of the resources that are gathered come from state lands. Military also owns a lot of forest areas and they play a big role in supporting or rebounding endangered and extinct species populations. So…It’s important to understand from the research that Native Hawaiian practices, although are not the only practices that happen and curate our landscapes in the forest, they also lead people not from Hawaiian culture or families into the marketplace. So you imagine…families who are closer to their traditions know where to gather resources, know how to process those resources and utilize and use them, use those products. If you don’t have a family member or know where to get those resources or how to process them, let’s use Lei as an example, garlands, specifically male. It has this scent that people really like and is used for weddings, funerals, first baby parties, anything celebratory. It’s the only native species, endemic species, I understand it’s still classified as endemic, in the market. So when I say in the market, I mean in stores, at Sack and Save, in Walmart, like in these commercialized areas. The best part of that study was connecting consumers to the resource. A lot of people know about, I’m gonna use the example of Male Lei again, know that it’s important for transitional life events. Like I said, first baby parties, graduations, funerals, marriages, anniversaries, like the big things. But a lot of people don’t know where it lives, how to process it, and how to grow it and one of the benefits of the study, even though we didn’t get too deep on any one topic, was I was able to raise awareness about the gap between consumer knowledge about the resource, where it comes from, and how to process it, as well as provide practitioners who continue to gather for subsistence and economic value, a voice on how people can curb that use, can provide substitutions, are able to grow it at home and to plan for the future. So providing consumers as well as practitioners agency in forming future populations and future practitioners as well. There’s more mali being planted than probably ever before, not just by practitioners, but also lay people in lay being like common people, not the lay that you wear this time, by lay people in the cities. So people who had been fragmented from the landscape during those times, now having access through people being excited about our natural resources, our traditions, and ensuring that they live on for multiple generations.

Cody Sanford: The current thinking separates our resources, our land from the people and as it’s so divided, so black or white, it’s from some of the other guests that have been on the podcasts. They’ve brought this up as well, how it’s not like that in the rest of the world, especially in our park system. We don’t think of it as being a place for resources in the United States. While it’s more like a place of leisure, these other park systems, they’re so multifunctional and what you’re just talking about is the study and working to bring people back to the land for the resources. I think that is something again that should be catching on more and more. Do you have any advice on how to maybe do that Dr. Kamelamela?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so let’s go with the ugly history. So botanical gardens were originally made as the first step to separate people from their environment. When you go to a botanical garden today, you’re most likely prohibited from gathering anything, leaves, seeds, or flowers at any point. That’s the first level of separating people from the environment. National parks in the United States were originally established to specifically remove Native Americans from their lands. And that also happened in Hawaii at Hawaii Volcanoes National Park and some of my family members were exposed from what we now know as Hawaii Volcanoes National Park to make way so that people could leisurely engage in those landscapes. There have been some efforts to reintroduce Buffalo into parks in Canada, as well as provide access for, like in volcanoes, access for Native Hawaiians and hula practitioners together. But essentially, those systems are set up to forcibly remove people from their environment. It does not smile upon direct engagement. So how to remedy that is to engage in a practice that is close to resources. I can’t say what that might look like other places, but in Hawaii hula is very much intertwined and a reflection of resources on the land. And also caveat, just because you dance hula does not mean that you will have the same relationship as someone who dances hula and gathers their own resources, which I’m going to push that further. Just because you dance hula doesn’t mean that if you are gathering resources that you’ll have the same relationship as a olapa or a skilled dancer comes from a lineage of seven generations. I don’t know if that makes sense. So there are different degrees of separation and different degrees of pilina or relationship with the landscape and the number one way to cut through that is to acknowledge that is what you want and that you’re open and willing to be a student of the land. The communities that I’ve engaged in, Hula, Lahala hat making, woodworkers, canoe carvers, La’au Lapau, Hawaiian healing medicine with plants, they’re all students of the landscape and students of the environment and have humbled themselves to understand even some of the that we identify today, the greatest masters still see themselves as students of the landscape. It’s kind of like that idea, that if you think you know everything, you probably still have room to learn more. So beyond policy, because policy is driven by the wants and whims and will of the people, will only be formed… when enough people have the want and will to change those laws. The reason the 1978 Constitutional Convention happened was because the community in Hawaii wanted to have a say in how their relationships would move going forward. And so whether you’re in the united. where that policy comes from and how you want to change it is important. But just as important is cultivating communities of people based on a place or practice base. Genealogy relationship with the land to carry you forward. It’s not enough to know about the law. It’s not enough to know about the practice. It’s not enough to know about the place. You really need to bring all those things together and know how to articulate your impact in those areas, which is…why I study relationships because it wraps all of those things together. There are people, if you want to learn hula, you can go to a Halao. If you want to learn how to weave, you can go to a Halao practitioner. If you want to learn how to fish, you go to a fisherman. But how do we advocate for all of those multiple types of people in policy? That’s where the studying of the relationships with the environment comes into play. We’re not just carved by our environments, by the winds and the rains, and the seasons. We also carve our environments. We create spaces that reflect our values. I hope that answers your question.

Cody Sanford: Oh, Dr. Kamelamela it definitely, definitely does. This is a part of our sustainable mountain life series, but a unique difference to Hawaii is its mountains have a direct connection to the ocean. You’ve mentioned this a little bit, but could you talk a little bit more about the relationship Hawaii has with the sea?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so because we aren’t on a continental shelf and because we are volcanic shield islands, the distance between the mountains and the ocean is very, very short. I understand that in Western conservation, potentially ocean communities can go as far as a hundred miles in from the shore, and that could be a whole island here. So the distance is very short and because of the steepness of our mountains to the ocean, we have flash floods. So anything that happens in the mountains will impact the ocean. We see things like when we have the rain events because there are less trees and more non-permeable lands such as concrete sidewalks and streets, housing, all of that runoff goes into the ocean. And so what’s the saying? Oh, I can’t think of the saying, but we’ll have like a brown water watch. And so brown water watch is literally that the water will be brown. And so when it’s brown, that means that there is a higher potential for sharks to come in because the sharks feed on whatever comes out which could include pig carcasses, anything that needs to be cleaned of the land and goes into the stream is what sharks will come in for. It also increases the chances of different diseases. Leptospirosis is one of the diseases. What is a disease? Bacteria? I forget. But it comes from pigs and mammal urine, so dogs, cats, rats. So anything like piggeries, a lot of piggeries are made along the stream. And so those will impact things like surfers at surf breaks. They’ll have outbreaks of different diseases, different streps that’ll come out. So the connection between forest cover is critical to the ocean. And remember those systems I talked about, lo’i pond filled systems with taro, fish pond systems, those were traditional triggers for trapping sediment, for trapping nutrients, for creating ever-turning fertilizer systems for if you could think about that. And so there’s a big movement not just to reforest the oceans but also to trap that sediment in different levels of the streams as well as in fish ponds. I want to talk about mangroves, but that’s not really mountain-related. But I think a good example is mangroves. Around the world, mangroves are seen as a very positive thing because they create land, they capture sediment. One of my first conferences outside of the United States, I sat through a two-hour mangrove lecture, which was wild. Because in Hawaii, we don’t want that type of land. We don’t want that type of creation of land in the near shore areas because it makes it difficult for clean fish ponds to happen. So what works in one area may not work in Hawaii and many times has not worked in Hawaii. So the relationship between the mountains and the ocean is critical. I’m not sure if I said it yet, but Mauka is the mountains and Makai is the ocean.

So that system I talked about, the Ahupua’a system, is a management system to monitor and manage and curate from mountain ridge to ocean reefs. It’s kind of like the theme that they use today in science. So ridge to reef is, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of that concept, but it kind of comes from, yeah, in island systems, ridge to reef management.

Cody Sanford: I haven’t. 

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: So Mauka to Makai systems. And that’s based off of the Ahupua’a system. So people are re-engaging that system, cleaning up streams, cleaning riparian areas, areas near streams, reforesting up Mauka up in the mountains, reforesting with natives, not just the upper canopy, but also the mid and the lower canopy, in addition to reintroducing ferns, which is a whole other level, to capture water. A lot of the places in Hawaii, if you don’t have a direct intercept with the cloud line, what is that, at like eight to ten thousand feet, then you’re really dependent on mist systems. So misting that happens in the morning, harvesting dew drops, things of that nature are really important on the leeward side of the island. So the dry side of the island, the side of the island that doesn’t get most rain, which is usually where tourism is set up because tourists don’t like rain. So…People still live in areas that get less than two inches of rain a year and live on catchment systems so they’re not connected to county water lines. So it’s important for them to not just grow resources that will capture mist, but understand how those systems work so they can maximize those two inches of rain a year and make it last.

Cody Sanford: We are winding down towards the end of our discussion Dr. Kamelamela I want to ask how you see the ramifications of climate change in Hawaii?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so there’s different levels to the impacts climate change is having. There’s the world impact, which is overwhelming. That includes king tides, spring tides being overwhelming in the ocean area, and in the forest area as well as island-wide, it’s the increasing of drought. Some people like that, which…means that you have sunnier days in areas that are traditionally wet forests or cloud forests like where I live. But I think it’s important to not be so downtrodden about it. There’s a lot of advertisements that we’re doomed, but that creates complacency within our communities. And I’d like to think that if we’re able to create microclimates before, then we can create microclimates now. And we are creating microclimates. Microclimates are being created through urban sprawl. Microclimates are being created by the denuding of forests. Microclimates are being created by removing cover that could absorb and retain water, which would then cool our areas. So… I’m going to be more positive and say we can still create microclimates which can impact our macroclimates. Understanding that it’s one of my peeves, we talk about the reforestation of our mountains. And in Hawaii, some of the old-growth forests are simultaneously being cleared for residential lots. So it’s important that as we advocate for the reforestation of our mountains, we also hold our decision makers and urban regional planners accountable for the impacts urban sprawl contributes to microclimate and macroclimate changes around the world. So there are already impacts being had. The Lahaina Fire is one of them. It was not only caused by climate change, it was also caused by human neglect. Like we talked about of large swaths of land being not managed, becoming overgrown, contributing to prepared tinder. And if we take proactive roles in areas that we already know are issues, like privatized lands that create tinder and grass fire cycles, then we can be engaged and we can help to create an environment where we curate not just what we gather, but we curate our future. We curate what is passed on.

So… that’s what I think is important related to climate change in Hawaii. We are feeling different impacts with sea level rise, but it’s also, and this is an unpopular opinion, the sands move throughout the seasons and sometimes people build houses close to sand areas without knowing that the sand shifts throughout the year. It’ll be there for six months out of the year, and then it’ll go down the road for six months of the year. Then the season will change and it’ll come back. Similarly with the forest, the forest also has its rhythms. Sometimes there’s dieback for explainable reasons, such as insects, and sometimes there’s dieback for unexplainable reasons like…Now we know rapid ohia death is a reason for that in the mountains, which is a bacteria, I believe, a fungus, cyanobacteria. So yeah, I think we just need to be more proactive, less complacent, and start at home. Start doing what we can at home. Kind of that saying, take care of your yard before you go take care of your neighbor’s yard. And I think we can develop a slow roll at our homes by creating different ecosystems. Cultivating native ecosystems and resources that we want available, food, ornaments, maybe fodder for our animals, and really try and create the landscapes we want to leave behind.

Cody Sanford: Definitely. What you mentioned about the forest changing, it’s very relevant. Ecological succession, it’s supposed to happen. These forests are supposed to be a change. But like you said, there’s a rhythm to it. It has its own process that it goes by. It’s supposed to change with the species that have co-evolved with these landscapes. So I think it’s a very relevant point that you made there. I want to end with the question, for a sustainable future in Hawaii and maybe  everywhere, what would you say is most important?

Dr. Katie Kamelamela: Water. Creating systems to capture water, creating systems to intercept water, which means cloud, mist, creating systems to maximize water use, creating educational campaigns so people understand, like I said earlier, just because we’re surrounded by water doesn’t mean that we have an abundance of fresh water. Creating educational campaigns so people can cultivate an attitude of gratitude for the water that we do have. Not being complacent about wasting water that we do have or giving large landowners access to resources that they’re not using and that could be used in other ways. I’m not sure about other places, but I think even today, water that goes to the ocean is seen as a waste, but it’s not. Water that goes from the mountain streams into the ocean helps with the regeneration of the aquifer by permeability. It helps with the regeneration of fish, not just fresh fish, but also deep water fish and estuaries. It creates different microclimates. You think about, you know, we just talked about climate change. Most of the water in Hawaii is diverted and many of the county and municipal waters in the continental United States are also diverted waters. And when we divert water, we create desertification of areas. So reintroducing water into areas that they were historically removed from could help to combat some of the impacts of climate change. And what I call that is political drought. We have a lot of political drought across the world. And what I mean by political drought is drought that is created by policy, by water management policy. And so if we looked at our water management policy to identify where we have diverted water and where water can live again, we can bring life back to the land and therefore the people. We can bring life back to the streams and also to the fish. When we bring this life back to the stream, we also bring life back to the forest. So it’s this whole trickle-down impact, literally, from the tops of the mountains out to the depths of the ocean is the return of water. The return of relationships with water so that people learn how to cultivate systems and create microclimates that can then impact larger climate change in a positive way. And empowering people to understand that with a simple…seeing resources water, we can make a big difference in our communities and honestly in ourselves being like 70-80 percent water.

Cody Sanford: Dr. Kamelamela, you’re active on social media. Would you like to share your handles?

Katie Kamelamela: Yeah, so I’m most active on Instagram and X, I guess is what it’s called. So I’m at Katie Bam, K-T-E-A-B-A-M. And then I also have my website, www.katiekamelamela.com, K-A-T-I-E-K-A-M-E-L-A-M-E-L-A. And I’m also on LinkedIn under my name, Katie Kamelamela as well.

Cody Sanford: Well, once again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and till next time.

Dr. Kamelamela: Thanks so much for having me, Cody.

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Cody Sanford: What a great interview, thanks again Dr. Kamelamela for coming on the podcast. I am now joined by my co-host Kaydee Barker, Kaydee what did you take a way from the episode? 

Kaydee Barker: There was so much. I really loved how she went into a lot of the historical context of Hawai’i and also how unique it is of an environment for people and for the ecology, the ethnoecology of it was really cool. My favorite was when she talked about being a student of the land or a student of the landscape. I really loved that. It’s so beautiful and I think something that actually we could all strive to be, even if we live currently in an urban environment anywhere, if you think about what you can learn from the land, and also, as she said, having sort of an attitude of gratitude for the resources that the land provides for you, that’s a really beautiful way forward. What do you think, Cody?

Cody Sanford: I couldn’t agree more. Having an attitude of gratitude and a forever student mindset are two qualities that everyone should strive for.  I want to start with the topics of microclimates and biodiversity. Hawai’i Island, known as the Big Island on the mainland, is home to 10 of 14 microclimates and, unfortunately Hawai’i has earned the nickname “Endangered Species Capital of the World” according to the Hawai’i Department of Land and Natural Resources because Hawai’i has 44% of the endangered species in the United States. There’s so much biodiversity in this island chain. Hawai’i is less than .2% of the land area of the United States but has over 30% of the nation’s listed species this is because over 10,000 endemic plants and animals stem from Hawai’i. 

This is why I think the practices in the “Try-Wait” Campaign to create a 10-year marine reserve, are great examples of the patience needed by ecologists to build partnerships with communities to reach a policy that benefits the biodiversity and these unique microclimates while maintaining long-term viability for the local fishing economy. I did some more research into “Try-Wait” and the campaign takes place on the Ka‘üpülehu Reef on Hawai’i Island, it’s a 3.6-mile stretch of biodiverse coast popular among the fishing community on the island. This started in 1999 when a 6-year study from the University of Hawai’i found fish abundance decreased by 41% and fish diversity fell by 26% and the primary contributor to this was overfishing of the reef. This led the Ka‘üpülehu Marine Life Advisory Committee (KMLAC) to reach out to the local fishermen and community to form the marine reserve. The committee held 350 meetings talking with community members for over 2500 hours to create a 10-year marine reserve which began in 2016. This agreement, to protect the 3.6-mile coast took over 15 years to reach after the decline was first observed. The protection status will end in 2026. I haven’t found published research on the results of the “Try-Wait” campaign but the links for this research are in the show notes and the Livable Future Podcast website. This is an actual example of a sustainable policy and I am glad Dr. Kamelamela brought up this research into our discussion. Building a sustainable ecosystem anywhere will need largely varied solutions that are ecologically sustainable and can be embraced by the local community. I’ve talked a lot, Kaydee, what are your thoughts? 

Kaydee Barker: Yeah, so that’s, I think it’s really cool and interesting to think about how we create micro microclimates in kind of this more nuanced and positive manner because I feel like what I learned mostly about creating microclimates in school was talking about things like the heat island effect, which is where we’ve removed trees and added a bunch of impermeable surfaces and non-reflective surfaces that then creates this, like sucks in heat makes it these certain urban areas up to 10 or 20 degrees hotter than the surrounding area that has trees. I’ve heard a lot about that in school and then like on the flip side, sci-fi that I like to read. We can talk about the kind of eco-engineering microclimates or terraforming that creates microclimates that create macroclimates. And it’s sort of this like futuristic sci-fi idea, but actually this is what’s happening right now in our everyday lives is we do influence not only the environment around us, but also by extension the climate mostly has to do, especially microclimates, mostly has to do with vegetation and surfaces and water. And these are all things that we impact all the time. So we could take the time to think about how we might impact that in a more positive way that works for us and for the environment, rather than just trying to stop doing the harmful things, which also we should do probably. What do you think?

Cody Sanford:  Yeah, so much of sci-fi is a reflection of our current society. Great point and what you said made me think about how there is this sort of human arrogance that we are separate from nature or above nature and I believe that creates a deep disconnect where most people never see the pollution that we create. There’s an out of sight out of mind mentality. Especially with climate change, there is a disconnect between when the effects of pollution are seen versus when they were put in the environment so there isn’t as strong of an incentive now to stop because the true damage of climate change will be seen in the next 80 years rather than the next 8 years. If we start viewing ourselves as a part of the natural system, and in a position to make change, I believe we are off to something better. I mean we talk about these species that are integral to the ecosystem like ecosystem engineers, such as beavers can create massive changes in their environments. But on an individual level, there’s this presumption that we can’t do anything to change the environment for the better, I just think it’s important for people to remember that we do have the agency to build resilient ecosystems. 

Kaydee Barker: To jump off of what you just said, actually. So yeah, as you just brought up, we are not separate from nature. We are ecosystem engineers, and our listeners may or may not know what an ecosystem engineer is. Basically, it’s any living thing. Usually, it’s talking about animals in particular that change their environment to suit them. A beaver just doesn’t exist in its environment. It also will build a dam in order to make a pool to better suit the environment to itself. So humans are really essentially like probably the best ecosystem engineers that exist. We’re really, really good at it. And I think that draws back to what Dr. Kamelamela was saying that even a lot of the ways that we have in recent modern history related ourselves to the environment have been to create barriers. For instance, creating botanical gardens or parks in order to separate ourselves from the environment. And instead of having nature as this place where we can gather resources and be students of the land. Instead of that, we’ve created now these spaces that we’re not allowed to touch, we’re only allowed to leisurely stroll through, which has definitely some benefits to humankind and to the environment, but it’s a fundamentally different relationship. And, I personally have always felt or continue to feel more strongly, more in line with original Indigenous thinking in a lot of places that we really shouldn’t be separate from our environment. We are part of nature and nature is part of us. And it’s only by making ourselves separate from nature that we’re able to destroy it.

Cody Sanford: Kaydee, I really like the point you made about how we are only able to destroy nature when we see ourselves as separate from it. The way these concepts are protected by law in Hawai’i, along with the connection of the land that Dr. Kamelamela is discussing shows a level of wisdom that I wish was more prevalent in the U.S. 

Kaydee Barker: The constitutional conventions also that Dr. Kamelamella talked about are actually not something that I was even aware of. So that’s very cool. I’ve learned something new. And I think that’s something that maybe we could all earmark as an action item is be aware of if you are someone who lives in the US, be aware of when these constitutional conventions happen for your state and see if you could be a part of it. Yeah.

Cody Sanford: On that note, this has been the Livable Future Podcast. Remember to subscribe to find new episodes. Episode resources and a full transcript are available at the Livable Future Podcast website and to continue this discussion follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.